沃爾夫岡·顧彬(Wolfgang Kubin):漢學家、翻譯家、作家、德國翻譯家協(xié)會及德國作家協(xié)會成員。1945年12月17日出生于德國下薩克森州策勒市，1985年起任教于波恩大學東方語言學院中文系，1995年任波恩大學漢學系主任教授。以德文、英文、中文出版專著、譯著和編著達50多部，如《中國文學中自然觀的演變》、《中國古典詩歌史》等。合編、主編或翻譯的作品有《子夜》、《莎菲女士的日記》、《家》及《現(xiàn)代中國小說(1949－1979)》等。

　　近來，顧彬已經(jīng)成為在中國最具知名度的漢學家之一。他上一次引發(fā)熱議是因為“德國之聲”的一篇專訪，國內媒體在轉述的時候說，這位德國波恩大學漢學系主任以“中國當代文學是垃圾”等驚人之語，炮轟中國文學。顧彬后來澄清，媒體歪曲了他的原話，他只說過棉棉、衛(wèi)慧這樣的“美女作家”的作品，不是文學是垃圾。但細看顧彬接受德國之聲采訪的原文，可以肯定的是他對中國當代文學的評價很低。

　　在2007年3月底舉辦的“世界漢學大會”上，一場名為“漢學視野下的20世紀中國文學”的研討會演變成“顧彬討論會”�！拔蚁Ｍ�我是錯的！”顧彬說，20世紀文學分1949年以前和以后，1949年以前的文學基本上屬于世界文學，1949年以后的文學除了中國史以外基本上都不屬于世界文學，前者是幾百元一瓶的五糧液，后者是幾塊錢的二鍋頭。他還特別強調，中國當代作家不會外語，看不懂外文原著，“如果一個作家不掌握語言的話，他根本不是一個作家，所以基本上中國作家是業(yè)余的，而不是專家�！�

　　首先向顧彬挑戰(zhàn)的是北京大學中文系教授陳平原。他表示自己對中外對話過程中形成的“外來和尚會念經(jīng)”的現(xiàn)象很不滿�！拔矣X得有必要做一個調整。以前我們會非�？蜌猓�外國學者說的良藥苦口我們都接受下來了，我們今天不要這樣。有問題擺到桌子上一起討論，即使互相之間會有一點沖撞，也沒關系！”

　　他接下來指責顧彬“越界了”。在他看來，將中國當代作家的問題根源歸結到外語不好上，絕對是錯誤的；
而將1949年前后的作品籠統(tǒng)作好壞的評價，是嘩眾取寵。他還希望顧彬能夠替中國作家設身處地地想一想，“‘外來的和尚會念經(jīng)’，再加上我們全國這么多的傳媒在炒作，給當代作家?guī)�來多大的壓力？”他還打了個比方：假如一個做德國文學研究的中國學者，到處說德國文學不行，德國人會有什么感覺？陳平原認為，顧彬如此過分的批評，可能是因為中國人過于謙和了。

　　整個研討會都在評價顧彬，這是一個奇異的現(xiàn)象。3月26日晚，在這次研討會結束之后，《南風窗》記者專訪了顧彬。

　　中國作家大多是騙子或其他什么

　　《南風窗》（以下簡稱《南》）：你怎么從學習神學轉變到研究漢學的？

　　顧彬（以下簡稱顧）：我自己覺得生活的意義是了解人是什么，所以我想通過神學了解人是什么，但在1960年代德國大學中了解到的神學，不一定會回答我的問題，所以我去找，先到哲學再到文學。可以說，我看了歐洲所有哲學和文學的經(jīng)典，因為很多作品是外文寫的，所以我學了很多在學校沒學過的外語。

　　我偶然碰到一個美國詩人的翻譯，他翻譯了不少唐朝的詩歌，我很喜歡他的翻譯。所以我覺得，為什么不學一些古代漢語呢？然后我開始學日語，我想了解中國文學能不能幫我找到“人”。因為不能夠來中國，所以我1969年去日本找中國，找到唐朝的中國，日本保留很多唐朝的中國。從日本回來后，我覺得應該多學漢學，不光是唐朝的詩歌，還有孟子和孔子。這給我一個感覺，中國文化、哲學、文學的中心就是“人”，所以我從神學轉到了漢學。

　　《南》：你更喜歡中國的古典文學。

　　顧：我最喜歡的是唐朝的詩歌，宋朝的散文。我不喜歡宋詞，但是我喜歡宋朝的散文，太好了，美得不得了。我現(xiàn)在寫《中國戲劇史》，元曲不能夠說很喜歡，但非常有意思。明清的小說也不錯。

　　《南》：你對中國當代文學的評價和古典文學正好相反，在接受媒體采訪時，你的批評非常尖銳。你在《20世紀中國文學史》中對中國當代文學的批評，和在大眾媒體面前的批評是一樣的么？

　　顧：我的書寫得非�？陀^，我也介紹了一些非�！翱膳隆钡淖骷液妥髌�。我知道不少德國人，不一定是德國漢學家和作家，他們對中國文學充滿了偏見。我不會責怪他們，有時候是我們工作得不夠。比方說，我寫中國古典詩歌史，我希望德國人看了中國古典詩歌之后，覺得中國文學真的太好了。但是我受到了批判，因為我給明清的篇幅比較少，我覺得那個時候沒有什么真正好的詩。

　　我寫《20世紀中國文學史》的時候，我的朋友說你是歷史學家，雖然你不喜歡某個人、某個作者，你也知道介紹他們會引起讀者的反感，但你還是介紹他們的作品。我在里面介紹了一些完全過時的作品和作家，他們在20世紀五六十年代起到作用，但是一般的德國讀者看到這個會說，這就是中國文學，我不感興趣，算了吧。

　　現(xiàn)在德國有一些教授的職位，是為了專門介紹中國文學而設置的，但這些人根本不搞翻譯工作，也不接受中國作家，不和他們見面。我舉個例子，很多中國作家會來波恩和我開朗誦會，我問我的同事，要不要和中國作家接觸，他們都拒絕，說不要，沒什么意思，無聊。他們不翻譯，不介紹，不接觸，不寫，他們用我的資料來上課。

　　《南》：他們是僅僅憑借印象得出中國文學沒意思的結論？

　　顧：不能說他們不了解。中國當代文學是很有問題的，首先應該承認，然后我們可以再客觀地談中國還有不少好的作家。大部分人不是作家，是騙子或者其他什么。他們覺得文學可以玩，玩夠了不成功的話，可以下海賺錢去。1980年代一批很重要的作家，現(xiàn)在什么都不寫。

　　《南》：你覺得原因在哪里呢？

　　顧：因為他們不認真。我說過文學不是業(yè)余的，文學是工作，應該有責任感。

　　《南》：中國作家不認真和作協(xié)體制有關系嗎？

　　顧：德國也有作協(xié)，我也是作協(xié)分會的會長，問題不在這里，問題在作家本身。作家應該覺得文學就是他的生活。

　　重新回到文學的標準上

　　《南》：你把1949年作為一個界限，分別1949年前的文學和1949年后的文學。但1949年之后，不是也有很大差別么？1980年代前后，是不是也可以算作一個界限呢？

　　顧：當然也是界限。1980年代好多作品也許過時了，但還可以談一談，而1990年代之后的作品都有很大的問題。

　　現(xiàn)在很多中國作家，內容關注爆炸性、刺激性，所以記者注意到他們。比方說，幾年以前，中國—對夫婦寫《中國農民調查》，他們拿了柏林一個非常高的獎金，但他們的語言和思想亂七八糟。中國當代文學的問題是，只要某一部作品被禁止或遭到政府的批評，那么就認為他們是好作家。他們根本不從文學本身來看作品，問題在這。作品可能與政治有一定關系，當然這不絕對。語言還是最重要的。

　　《南》：你覺得中國文學的水平不夠，那在你看來，哪個國家的文學代表了較高的水平？

　　顧：冰島。50萬人口，有一個人拿了諾貝爾文學獎。所以你可以說，我的標準是冰島。

　　《南》：諾貝爾文學獎的評獎標準，你基本上都是認可的？

　　顧：不是，根本不是。我個人是這樣認為的，基本上是政治。這是我個人的看法。

　　《南》：你對中國當代文學的了解有多深？像余華、李銳這些作家的作品你都看過么？

　　顧：我都看過，很多作品看了第一次，就夠了，不想再看第二次。有些作品寫得很像電影劇本，很像給某個歷史性階段加上一幅插圖。另外，我非常討厭一個作家重復別人講過的故事。

　　《南》：你覺得臺灣的文學，在中國當代文學史上占什么地位？

　　顧：我可以這么回答你的問題——我跟一個比較有名的臺灣文學評論家談過這個問題，他說，臺灣文學就是給臺灣人寫的。如果這句話真的有代表性的話，那我不要研究臺灣文學。給臺灣人寫的，不是給臺灣以外的人寫的，這個地方主義太可怕，所以他們現(xiàn)在完全處于邊緣。而夏宇，他的詩歌是一流的。

　　《南》：陳映真你覺得怎么樣？

　　顧：現(xiàn)在我們回到內容的問題上來。他們提出一些有意思的問題，這個我承認，但是他們都是左派。我不反對左派，但是應該聰明一些。他們那個時候，我還是覺得是搞民族主義的，首先他是政治家，而不是文學家。當然這個問題比較復雜，因為一個作家應該有一個立場。但是這些人現(xiàn)在好像都不寫了是不是？他們還在寫么？

　　《南》：可不可以這樣理解，你希望中國當代作家能夠盡快找到適合自己的坐標，看清世界最好的文學家，向他們學習？那么，這個坐標是誰？

　　顧：你看北島，他和1920、1930年代的西班牙朦朧詩派是分不開的。德國詩人策蘭，王家新專門翻譯了他的詩。我的意思是說，北島、歐陽江河、王家新，他們不與中國文學（為伍），他們是世界文學。

　　《南》：中國當代文學家，是更應該向20世紀二三十年代的作家去學習語言，還是學習國外的著作？

　　顧：都需要。如果一個中國學者沒有學過好多好多外語的話，他根本不能了解1949年以前的文學。比方說戴望舒，他深受外國詩人的影響；
胡適，好多作品是英文寫的；
錢鐘書也是；
等等。但是中國的當代學者，因為外語很差，根本不看中國作家過去用外文寫的作品。

　　批評與反批評

　　《南》：你對中國當代文學的批評，引來很多反批評。你覺得今晚那些對你的批評都是沒有道理的么？有沒有部分修正你的觀點？

　　顧：對我來說，爭論說明中國當代文學是很有問題的，應該多談一談。今晚的爭論對我來說是好的。有些人發(fā)怒，我覺得不錯，這說明他還是關心中國當代文學。

　　《南》：你還沒有直接回答我的問題，你完全不認同批評你的觀點么？比方說你對作家應是好的翻譯家的過分強調。

　　顧：他們不對。

　　《南》：你強調作家懂外語的重要性，認為這樣可以開闊自己的視野，但反對者認為寫作是很個人化的事情，能不能看外文原著不重要。可不可以這樣理解，在你看來，文學更多是技術活，需要不斷地參考和學習，而批評你的人認為，文學很多時候是靠悟性，需要天賦。

　　顧：我覺得文學不是技術，而是藝術。同時，文學是刻苦的工作，和你們記者的工作一樣。一個中國作家寫小說，1個月到3個月之內，可以寫完一部小說，德國作家一年最多寫100頁，說明他一天只能寫一頁中的一部分，中國作家不會這樣做。詩人是另外一回事，中國一些詩人也許會一個星期寫一首詩，但中國的散文、小說作家不會這樣做，他們盲目自信。

　　《南》：你是說中國作家覺得自己有天賦，所以就可以不斷去寫？是這意思么？

　　顧：中國有400萬個作家，他們之中可能有一兩個有天賦的，其他的肯定不是。

　　《南》：你還是覺得有的作家是有天賦的。

　　顧：每一個國家都會有，但這是意外。

　　《南》：在你看來，誰關于現(xiàn)代中國文學的研究是最好的。是夏志清么，他的《中國現(xiàn)代小說史》？

　　顧：不。他的《中國現(xiàn)代小說史》很有問題，這個你應該知道。他完全否定魯迅。抬高張愛玲是不錯的，但是他基本上否定20世紀的中國（左翼）小說。

　　《南》：他這個和你否定1949年以后的中國文學是不是有點類似呢？左翼就是意識形態(tài)化，所以要否定他，就像你覺得1949年以后的中國作家外語不好，不會閱讀外國的原著，視野很受局限。他有他的標準。

　　顧：他的標準是政治的標準，所以覺得魯迅等都有問題。張愛玲和共產黨沒有什么關系，所以他覺得她是不錯的。張愛玲是一個非常有意思的作家，文筆好，語言好，她的英語也非常好。

　　《南》：那你覺得關于中國現(xiàn)當代文學的研究著作，哪一本是比較好的？

　　顧：你說中國么？這個應該由你們自己決定，因為你們有這么多書。國內有兩個人，我用他們的資料用得比較多，一個是上海復旦大學的陳思和，他的中國當代文學史寫得很好，一個是陳平原，我用他的現(xiàn)代文學史特別多，他也寫得不錯，基本上不錯。如果沒有他們兩個人的文學史研究的話，我也可能沒法寫我的20世紀中國文學史，因為他們客觀，有很多很多資料，等等。

　　《南》：但是陳平原就反對你的很多觀點。

　　顧：無所謂。君子不怨。

　�。ㄕ�自《南風窗》2007年4月16日版）

　　來源:人民網(wǎng)—光明日報

　　附：Deutsche Welle德國之音對顧彬（Wolfgang Kubin）的采訪。

　　Bonn University Professor of Chinese Studies Wolfgang Kubin is one of the most renowned Sinologists in Germany,(點擊此處閱讀下一頁)

　　 especially on the presentation and study of contemporary Chinese literature. In this DW interview, he expressed his views on the Chinese Writers Association, the problems in contemporary Chinese literature, the problems of Chinese writers and how they can step onto the world stage, and also about certain specific writers and works.

　　DW: In the recent Writers Association meeting in Beijing, Tie Ning【鐵凝】 was elected chairperson. This is the third chairperson in the history of the Writers Association after Mao Dun【茅盾】 and Ba Jin【巴金】. I understand that you were in China at the time. What are your views?

　　Kubin: I was in China at the time, but I don"t know much about this event. In any case, it can be said that all of the Chinese writers that I know hold the Writers Association in contempt. For us Sinologists, it is a matter of indifference if there is a new chairperson for the Writers Association.

　　DW: Can it be said that the new Writers Association president does not need to the most famous and respected person in the manner of Mao Dun and Ba Jin?

　　Kubin: This Writers Association serves no purpose whatsoever. You can ask all the writers in mainland China and none of them will voluntarily talk about the Writers Association. Nobody. Not a single person. If one is a genuine Chinese writer, he will not join this Writers Association. If he became a great writer only after joining, then something is wrong with him. Generally speaking, good writers cannot possibly be associated with the Writers Association.

　　DW: I understand you wrote a report recently about the problem of existence of Chinese literature in the 21st century. Can you summarize the contents of this report? That is to say, tell us about the problems that exist for Chinese literature over the past few years.

　　Kubin: I can only mention certain existing problems that I feel exists in 20th century Chinese literature. If we divide Chinese writers into those before or after 1949, we will find out that writers before 1949 were pretty good with foreign languages -- Eileen Chang【張愛玲】, Lin Yu-tang【林語堂】, Hu Shi【胡適】, they can all write in foreign languages. Some of the authors (such as Lu Xun【魯迅】) can handle two foreign languages without any problems. After 1949, you basically cannot find a Chinese writer who can speak a foreign language. Therefore, he cannot use another language system to examine his own work. Also, he cannot read the works written in foreign languages. He can only read foreign works translated into English. Therefore, Chinese writers have very poor understanding of foreign literature. Many of the pre-1949 writers believe that when they learn foreign languages, they will enrich their own writing. But if you ask a contemporary Chinese writer why he won"t learn a foreign language, he will say that a foreign language can only ruin his mother tongue. I guess this is why there are no great writers after 1949 and why these writers do not compare to the pre-1949 writers. This is where the problem lies. This is a very important issue.

　　DW: Do you think that this is the sole problem, or the main problem?

　　Kubin. This is the biggest problem. When Chinese writers go overseas, they have to rely on the Sinologists because they can"t even speak a word of foreign language. They rely on us completely. Their works need us to translate them from Chinese.

　　DW: You must have some understanding about certain recent works from China in recent years, such as 【狼圖騰】.

　　Kubin: is fascism according to us Germans. That book causes China to lose face.

　　DW: There are also the works of other authors such as the "pretty girl writers" like Mian Mian【棉棉】 and Wei Hui【衛(wèi)慧】.

　　Kubin: You must be joking. That is not literature. That is trash.

　　DW: Do you think that there is any more decent Chinese literature in recent years?

　　Kubin: There is some in Chinese poetry. There are some good, even excellent, writers of Chinese poetry, such as Ouyang Jianghe【歐陽江河】, Sichuan【西川】, Zhai Yongming【翟永明】 and others. There are many others. That is for sure.

　　DW: China is talking about "Poetry is dead." Why do you think?

　　Kubin: How can poetry be dead? Even if China is dead, then poetry will be dead in China but it will continue to "live on" in Germany. If a Chinese poet comes to Germany and we organize a reading, there will be at least 50 people, 100 people in attendance. We will certain publish their collected poems. Contemporary Chinese writers have published many poetry books in German. Chinese literature will not die in Germany.

　　DW: How does contemporary Chinese poetry compare to the 1980"s with people like Bei Dao【北島】 and Yang Lian【楊煉】?

　　Kubin: That is hard to compare. But I think that the poets from both the 1980"s and 1990"s are excellent. They have their own visions, they have their own language, etc. Personally, I obviously like Bei Dao【北島】 and that group of people. But I am older and I should consider the younger readers.(點擊此處閱讀下一頁)

　　 Those younger readers are likely to prefer the 1990"s poets such as Wang Jiaxin【王家新】, Ouyang Jianghe【歐陽江河】, Zhai Yongming【翟永明】 and so on.

　　DW: The Chinese Writers Association has a project now to select 100 Chinese works and translate them into foreign languages so that Chinese literature can go out into the world. What do you think about this plan? Is it meaningful?

　　Kubin: This may mean something in the United States, but it is meaningless in Germany. Basically, we have already translated the Chinese literary works into German. All Chinese writers of any era already has German editions of their works. We do not need that help. But it is a problem in the United States where the need exists because they have done fewer translations.

　　DW: China has been developing economically very rapidly. Some people say that China will surpass the United States economically in the next 30 or 40 years. The United States got prosperous in the last century. But we know that they prospered not only economically, but also in literature, cinema, popular music and so on. They had a tremendous impact on the world. Do you believe that China will also develop rapidly in literature to match its economic standing?

　　Kubin: That depends on the Chinese people themselves. The people who despise Chinese culture and Chinese literature are not us foreigners, but the Chinese people themselves. The problem is with China itself. The Chinese people do not assign any important position to their own culture and literature.

　　DW: How are we supposed to understand this? Why do you say that the Chinese people do not assign any importance to their literature?

　　Kubin: Let me give you a very simple example. Last year, I published in Germany a history of 20th century Chinese literature. When the Chinese intellectuals who are all my friends (including the writers) heard that I was writing such a history, they said, "Don"t write it. There is nothing good. It is all trash."

　　DW: That is to say, they despise themselves. Or perhaps one should say that they despise each other.

　　Kubin: Yes, you are very correct. They despise each other.

　　DW: When Gao Xingjian【高行健】 won the Nobel Prize, the reaction from China was more negative than positive. Is that what happened? Do you feel that China will get another Nobel Prize in Literature?

　　Kubin: The Nobel Prize in Literature is secondary. You have to write poorly in order to win. If you write well, you will never win it. Therefore the Nobel Prize in Literature is also trash.【關于顧彬對諾貝爾獎的觀點與上文映照】

　　DW: If you have to say a few words to Chinese writers, what will you say?

　　Kubin: They should learn to master their mother tongue well. Most Chinese writers have poor mastery of Chinese. Also, they should learn first on how to write. The problem there is tremendous for Chinese writers. But their basic problem is that their awareness is poor and their vistas are limited. It seems as if they live in a small room and they are afraid to open their eyes to look at the world. Therefore, China does not have its own voice, at least in terms of literature. There are writers everywhere in Germany, they represent Germany and they speak for the German people. Therefore we have a voice for Germany. But where is the voice for China? None. It does not exist. The Chinese writers are gutless. Basically, they have no guts.

　　DW: That is to say, there is no such person like Lu Xun.

　　Kubin: Yes, you are very correct. Lu Xun was representative. But can show me such a Chinese writer today? There isn"t any.

　　DW: Does this have anything to do with the environment inside China? That is to say, the ideological control.

　　Kubin: Possibly. But you cannot keep saying that the conditions do not allow you. I feel that a Chinese writer should not keep saying that historical conditions do not allow him to do this or that. I consider that to be a joke. In order for a writer to become a genuine writer, he should not consider what difficulties he might encounter. He should speak out just like Lin Yu-tang and Lu Xun did back then.

　　DW: From the 20th century to the 21st century, which Chinese writers would you consider to be great?

　　Kubin: This is premature to say. You have to wait at least 50 years later and then you look back to see which (if any) are great. Lu Xun is definitely great. There are others before 1949. There are definitely none from 1949 to now.

　　DW: Bei Dao and Gao Xingjian are not?

　　Kubin: Gao Xingjian? Don"t joke about this. Bei Dao could be considered great, because he is courageous. But you should not forget that he is only 50 years old.

相關熱詞搜索：騙子 中國作家 顧彬 Wolfgang Kubin